Jarosław Kowal, Interia Music: The word about neuroatypicality is quite vague and unclear. On the one hand, the increased creative potential and non-linear way of thinking are emphasized, on the other hand, difficulties in establishing relationships and hypersensitivity to external stimuli are indicated. How does this manifest itself for you?
Aga Derlak: – It’s good that you asked about it, because neuroatypism is actually not like a cold, which affects everyone in a similar way. Much depends on the degree of ability to adapt to life in a world where it is necessary to belong to society. Regardless of whether our brain allows us to do so or not. Without it, we will not be able to, for example, fulfill our professional obligations. Some people cope better because they have adapted well as high-functioning people. Others do worse and need medication or therapy.
However, regardless of the degree of adaptation, the brain structure of such people is different from neurotypical brains. They often have a rather abstract sense of humor and can be overexpressive, but each case is different. The human world was not designed for such great diversity, so making certain compromises is necessary, if only to establish relationships with others. We are herd animals and we need each other, but it is not that easy. At some point I decided that since neuroatypicality is such an important element of me, why not turn it into my art?
Every musician must spend an appropriate number of hours playing the instrument from an early age. He needs to work on his focus, and it was a big problem for me. Moreover, even though I have more experience and better-adapted tools, it is still quite a challenge. It is often difficult to explain how it works to someone who has never faced a similar problem. This is where I started striving for perfection in music over time. To show that I can meet the required standards. So I finally decided to see what would happen if I stopped pursuing it and trusted my inconsistent and illogical way of thinking.
Was it any relief to discover that “neuroatypical” is a word that also describes you? Did it help you sort out the thoughts you had about yourself?
– That’s exactly what I meant. I didn’t want to create any manifesto and talk about how difficult it is for me to live with ADHD. This is not a “me versus the rest of the world” confession. Rather, I show that I have a certain specificity that I am able to transform into creative action, rather than hiding it. This manifests itself in various ways, for example on “Neurodivergent” some songs and motifs are repeated, because that’s how I felt. I no longer worry that everything I do must be clear and carefully thought out. I’m actually going against the previous albums and it brings me a lot of relief. I allow myself to be as I am, even though it is a risky decision to some extent. Fortunately, avant-garde and jazz musicians, as well as those playing niche music, can take risks, because there is no major label or producer setting the direction above us.
The slogan that “music is a language without words” often comes back. I understand where it comes from, because especially during concerts, a wordless bond between performers and listeners is a common phenomenon, but I also feel that it is a romanticized belief. Playing in minor generally seems sad, and playing in major, happy, but everything else in instrumental music is rather looking for yourself in other people’s compositions. If someone doesn’t read the interviews, only the titles may be some kind of clues. How do you take it?
– Music has always been used to evoke certain emotions and very specific associations. This hasn’t changed. When it comes to illustrative music, we can, of course, use very obvious associations – a whole-tone scale is, for example, a waterfall or a fairy and so on. It should also be remembered that each key has its own color and composers consciously use this to achieve the desired character of the piece. I feel like music is never created for music’s sake. It always serves an idea. Even the 20th century and contemporary avant-garde art is intended to evoke certain emotions – anxiety, surprise, disorientation. In instrumental music, the message is of course more veiled due to the lack of words, but this allows for a different type of relationship with the listeners. Less obvious and literal, not imposing anything. If I say that everyone can add their own meaning to music, it will sound cheesy, but it really is.
I don’t always want to tell my own story. Sometimes I prefer there to be something more universal behind the sounds. I am completely convinced that music cannot exist in isolation from the listener and there is no need to prepare specifically for concerts. My job is to guide the public. Of course, I don’t say: “Hey, I have ADHD and it’s hard for me,” I just show how my mind works and invite you to enter this world. Some will like what they discover, others will not, but we will be in this experiment together. This was my goal when creating new material.
I asked about the meanings hidden in sounds, remembering the words of, among others, John Cage, Igor Stravinsky and Bogusław Schaeffer, who claimed – at least at a certain stage of their activity – that music itself cannot express anything. They perceived it as a set of ordered sounds to which the audience could give meaning, but their own.
– Transferring emotions one to one can actually be difficult, after all, each of us perceives colors a little differently. We give everything a more or less individual meaning. There are people for whom a major chord does not have to be happy at all, because, for example, they grew up in a completely different culture. For example, gamelan is based on completely different scales. If we think about it any longer, we will begin to enter the philosophical sphere from the musical sphere. We should add to our entire conversation about music that it concerns the European perspective, which is not the only one. So we can agree that the listener is not able to fully understand the emotions contained in the songs, but this is not the goal. There is no need to prove this using the example of something as abstract as music, because even if I tell someone directly that I am sad, they will not be able to feel this sadness in exactly the same way.
If you look at neuroatypicality broadly, not in a medical sense, but as a kind of symbol of unconventionality, it is also revealed in the form of this album – there are certain repetitions, interpenetration of songs, some kind of intentional lack of consistency. Did you feel tied down by conventions and needed to escape from them?
– I felt a bit tied down, but definitely not oppressed, for example by the fact that I had to write down notes. Such actions are completely normal and common, there is no point in thinking about them. However, finishing a piece was a challenge for me, because each chord can be followed by an infinite number of subsequent chords, and then another one, and so on. Due to this, I was constantly making changes and finishing something turned out to be a great challenge. The form was a problem for me mainly because I couldn’t decide what to choose. When improvising, this problem disappears. The choice is made intuitively. It gave me much more freedom.
Instead of wondering what I should choose, I had to focus on listening in the here and now. The music from “Neurodivergent” is recorded, but very briefly. During the game, I said to someone on the team, for example: “Now play a third higher.” We relied more on a set of concepts than on notes, thanks to which the songs took on a life of their own. This allowed me to give up full responsibility for the music and let the people who co-create it into it. I don’t want to romanticize the process now, but what happens during improvisation is not tangible. We use sets of skills and interests that we have developed, but their selection, sequence, order or location in time is something that happens outside of us.
I like the relationships between some songs on the new album. Especially the relationship between “Number 4” and “After Number 4”. One might wonder why it’s not actually one song, since the same motif returns, but it’s probably because the end is clearly emphasized after three minutes, and then the next two minutes refer to the previous ones, that it seems so intriguing. For this reason, I would say – which is an advantage for me, but I guess that in these “fast” times it may be a disadvantage for others – that “Neurodivergent” should be listened to in its entirety.
– I agree, “unfortunately” it’s worth listening to the whole thing (laughter). I know that few people have the time or even the right equipment and comfortable conditions for this. Moreover, the culture has changed. When I ask my students what they listen to, they are more likely to point to playlists. However, I believe that there will never be a shortage of people interested in delving deeper into music, and your words are an example of this.
The genesis of “Number 4”, which is number five on the album, which is not accidental, and “After Number 4” is that we finished the first one and I said: “Now let’s loop this motif and keep playing.” We didn’t even take a break from recording. We made a spontaneous decision. The same applies to both “Masuria”. We played it slowly at first, then I said, “Let’s play it like Wayne Shorter’s Orbits.” We focused on stream of consciousness and, above all, fun. We even have a group on Messenger that we call “We’re having a great time.” This motto guided us during recordings and it guides us during every concert.
When you create, do you take into account the context in which your music will appear? You know that today it’s all about playlists, listening on phones with low-quality speakers, listening to music as a background to other activities, and so on. Does this influence your compositional decisions in any way, or do you make no compromises?
– I don’t make compromises because jazz music is still in danger of becoming part of the mainstream. This is changing, many festivals such as Off or Męskie Granie are opening and there are new opportunities to show avant-garde, modern jazz such as Hoshii, Kosmonauci or Maciej Masecki, but commercial success is still far away. I don’t have such a goal, so I don’t wonder what will be the “banger” this summer (laughter). It wouldn’t make sense in my music. The beauty of jazz is that it doesn’t have to make any compromises.
In recent years, jazz has ceased to be perceived as elitist music that can only be heard in philharmonic halls. This is thanks to, among others, Alfa Mista, Domi & JD Beck, EABS and Hoshii. But there’s still that other jazz. The music is equally interesting, but does not appeal as strongly to the younger generation. For example, Vijay Iyer, Craig Taborn or Myra Melford. Maybe it’s a matter of an ongoing process and first there is a growing interest in what is more accessible, and then the same people will eventually start reaching for music with an even higher degree of complexity, which is not as inaccessible as it often seems. Where would you place yourself in this context?
– Recently, jazz scenes have actually appeared at numerous festivals. It’s hard to say why they don’t feature the likes of Vijay Iyer or Craig Taborn. Perhaps this is music that is a bit less accessible and requires a bit more knowledge and listening. I was very lucky that we premiered our material before Craig Taborn’s solo concert in Łódź. I have always been very excited about him, he is a very important artist to me. I didn’t feel like we didn’t fit together, even though they were two very different shows.
I don’t really think about where I would place myself in this whole context. Like every artist, I would like my music to reach as many listeners as possible. It would be great if I found an audience in this group that does not attach much importance to genres and their limitations, but I do not want to deliberately compose to fit into any convention. It’s difficult to answer this question, because all artists want to arouse interest, but only with the music that really plays in them. I took a risk on “Neurodivergent” and it remains to be seen whether I will like it or not. I wasn’t thinking about targeting any specific scene or any specific audience. Such calculated actions would probably not succeed at all. It’s better to just listen to your intuition.